How long should my novel be?

There are two answers to this question.

1. The story answer by Orson Scott Card, best-selling author

As long as the story needs, but 75k-100k is when it starts to “feel” like a novel.

2. The selling it to editors answer by Jenny Rappaport, literary agent

“Aim for 80k minimum and 120k maximum. Try to hit as close to 100k as possible, but not go over. There are exceptions made for fat fantasies and longer novels.”

“For YA: 50k minimum. Try not to go over 75k. You can nudge it to 90k if it’s a fantasy. YA is a little more flexible.”

3. What happened to one author, Brandon Sanderson, when he tried to write to “the market”

As in stories less than 200,000 words…

BTW, Brandon is now New York Times best-selling author.

Share

Similar Posts

  • | |

    Teachers (and writers)! Free Class Next Monday on How to Teach Narrative for the Common Core

    If you feel a bit lost or anxious about how to teach narrative for the new core, especially stories, I think I can help.

    I’m an educator in the private sector and an award-winning novelist and short story writer. I’ve been teaching authors in various venues how to write for the last five years. I’ve been on writing podcasts with thousands of listeners, taught at a number of writers conventions, and had a series of articles published by the national Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America organization, an organization for professional authors. I’ve also been helping Nellie, my wonderful wife, teach her 7th and 8th grade language arts students the unit on short stories during that same period. We’ve taught it to twenty different classes and picked up a number of important insights along the way.

    This last year I couldn’t help but examine all the materials Nellie brought home during the district’s writing program adoption investigations. Some programs looked very promising; others not so much. Some got some things about writing flat out wrong. Most of the programs had gaps.

    Furthermore, because I work with so many people wanting to write, I know that it’s difficult to teach if you really don’t understand what stories really are and how they work. For lots of people, the subject matter can seem impenetrable. And yet writing stories is such a wonderful way to teach writing, especially because so many kids love it. You won’t find a kid who will spend extra hours writing a business letter or poem analysis, but you will find quite a few who will go crazy writing stories. And the whole time they’re practicing their writing skills.

    The question is how DO you write a story?

    What is a story?

    How can you tell if it’s good?

    How do you come up with ideas?

    Where do you start?

    And what the heck is this chart? Do writers really use this? (Not many that I know.)

    Story Diagram plot-mountain-pic

    And does anyone think changing the diagram to look like Aspen, Colorado actually helps?

    Story Diagram Aspen 

    Hey, students—please make your story look like Aspen, Colorado!  (Yeah, that’s going to be effective.)

    And yet it’s not as difficult as it appears. Nellie and I have seen a lot of kids really get into writing stories. We’ve seen kids WILLINGLY going way beyond the assignment to write stories that are eight, twelve, twenty-five plus pages. And as they’re writing, they’re practicing grammar, spelling, structure, vocabulary, etc. without knowing it and having a great time. I know that if you enable your students, many of them will write, write, write. Especially in grade school. But also in the higher grades.

    Stories can be a blast. The assignments can connect to many students. And the results can be wonderful. I’ve laughed out loud at some of the stories coming out of Nellie’s class. Others have been enjoyable on other levels.

    But for this to work in your class, you need to know some key things. You need to understand the core of story and the story development process. You need a lesson plan that details everything step-by-step so your students don’t flounder. And you need to know some fundamental tips (secrets?) about teaching this content.

    So I’m going to hold this day-long class for you. A full eight hours. And share everything Nellie and I have learned. This class will be for teachers at ALL levels (I’ll show you some ways to scale the complexity of what you’re doing). There will be NO cost. The only thing you have to bring is a pencil, paper, whatever program materials you have, and a willingness to have a good time.

    When we finish, you will know how to write a simple story like the ones your students will write because, ta-dum, you will write one! AND you’ll have a step-by-step lesson plan that builds on whatever materials you have—an official program or one of your own. AND you’ll understand story better than 99% of the population. AND you’ll have a bundle of techniques to help your students. AND you’ll solve both world peace and maybe the lost sock conundrum.

    Truly, I think that instead of feeling stress, you’ll actually be looking forward to teaching and writing stories with your students. If not, you may bring tomatoes and huck them at me, but please be aware that I will not stand still; to find satisfaction, you will have to be able to hit a moving target.

    If you’re interested, just click the Contact John link under my photo in the left sidebar and send me an email letting me know.

    Hope to see you in class!

    GET READY FOR A FUN DAY OF LEARNING!

    Topic: Teaching writing (narrative & the common core)

    Who: Teachers (and writers at least 18 years old), seats are limited

    When: Monday, July 29th, 8:15 AM – 5:00 PM

    Where: Rich Middle School, 54 E 100 S  Laketown, UT 84038

    Materials you need to bring:

    • Pencil
    • Paper
    • The writing program you’ll be using this year
    • Kooky socks, for those who cannot resist the urge
    • A lunch or a way to get one

    AGENDA

    8:15 AM Arrive

    8:30 AM – 9:20 AM

    • Can you create a redneck crapper?
    • The 1st secret to teaching writing: Attributes & techniques
    • The 5 parts of story
    • Thieves prosper – using existing patterns
    • A car, a beggar, and an idiot — basic pattern 1

    9:30 AM – 10:20 AM

    • The 2nd secret to teaching writing: Do it with them
    • Technique: Sketch then draft
    • Workshop 1: Zombies and kisses
    • Technique: Zing hunting
    • Workshop 2: Hunt zing

    10:30 – 11:20

    • What makes a story big or small
    • Workshop 3: Select a right-sized THOM and character
    • Workshop 4: Select a Goal
    • Workshop 5: Make character sympathetic
    • Workshop 6: 3 tries
    • Workshop 7: Resolution

    LUNCH

    12:00 – 12:50

    • The 3rd secret to teaching writing: Cognitive modeling and the 6-step process
    • The 4th secret to teaching writing: Our tiny brains
    • Writing is telling: Narrative & description
    • Technique: Yes, SiR
    • Technique: Broad-brush + 1
    • Technique: The Pause

    1:00 – 1:50

    • The 5th secret to teaching writing: Have fun
    • Workshop 8: Write your story

    2:00  – 2:50

    • How the pros revise—concept, line, & copy
    • Workshop 9: Content edit
    • The 6th secret to teaching writing: Our brains are still tiny
    • Workshop 10: Line edit

    3:00 – 3:50

    • The 7th secret to teaching writing: The 3 grunts (responding to a story and grading)
    • Share stories
    • What the heck did we just do?

    4:00 – 4:50

    • How to adjust for grade level
    • Common core
    • Your program and lesson plan
    • Identify black holes
    • Wrap up & next steps
    Share
  • |

    Your local zombie author appears on Writing Excuses, Plus the Writing Debrief explained

    After a cancerous death, I appeared on Writing Excuses this week to groan and hold forth with the guys on writing second novels and second books in a series.

    During the podcast I talked about my practice of debriefing after every writing project. A reader just asked what that was, and so I thought I’d explain it here.

    The debrief is a simple thing. I learned it back when I worked as a business consultant. It always provides great insights. Sometimes  it provides massive insights. The principle is to pull back and look at the big picture every once in a while. So here’s what I do. When I finish a project, I sit down and simply list out what I struggled with, what went well, and anything I learned. I list out things I’d do again that worked particularly well and things I’d do differently. This might be about craft or process. Sometimes I might take some time to reflect on the nature of story and read a favorite book about the craft or perform a story analysis on another movie or book. Then I write up my insights in a form that I can read later and know what the heck I’m talking about. This can take a few hours or a few days. This last debrief after draft 3 of CURSE coincided with my preparation for a day-long workshop I had agreed to give on story, and so the insights came thick and fast. I recommend the practice highly.

    Share
  • |

    The book trade is a . . . trade

    James Dawson, YA author, feels it’s somehow wrong to hold back on cussing in his fiction. He wrote an article about this in the UK Guardian called “Why Teens in Books Can’t Swear.” He thinks it’s unrealistic. He thinks it’s about gate-keeper censorship. You know, parents wanting to steer their children towards certain experiences and away from others.  

    People.

    Dawson’s approach to the whole problem is wrong-headed. This isn’t about the virtues and vices of fiction. Or about gatekeepers, especially in today’s ebook world.  Or what experiences parents want to provide their children. And it’s not about art reflecting reality. Reality includes trips to the toilet, and yet we somehow fail to include realistic bum wiping in so many of our tales. Good heavens, have we betrayed our artistic integrity? No. We’ve just naturally chosen to include things that appeal to us and leave out others that don’t. Every book is an exercise in hundreds of such choices.

    The fact is that Dawson’s forgetting that a fundamental aspect of the book trade is the trade.  The buyer trades his or her money for a product (the book) that provides a service (the entertainment, thrills, chills, etc. of the reading experience) he or she values.  A customer preferring one kind of experience over another isn’t censorship (the horror, the horror).  It’s choice.  

    As an author, you make your offer. If folks like it, they buy it. If not, they don’t. Nobody owes you a purchase.

    This means that in any business, and selling fiction is a business, the most sensible way forward is to offer your intended buyers something they are likely to value.  Something they’re going to like.  Something they want.  If your buyer is thirsty and wants water, offer him a cold glass of water, not a waffle iron.  And if you can’t bear to develop anything but waffle irons, then, by all means, develop waffle irons.  Just make sure you offer them to the folks looking for . . . waffle irons. 

    This business of making offers also means that we package our products and services so that customers can easily tell what’s in the box. You don’t want someone to purchase your box thinking it contains breakfast cereal when in reality it’s a bunch of bolts.

    Yeah, writing is an art. But offering it in trade to others is also a basic economic act.

    Share
  • Generating Story 11: Creative Q&A with Author Janci Patterson

    I was introduced to Janci Patterson at a local convention by author Sandra Tayler (some may know Sandra because of her husband Howard who does the online Schlock Mercenary comic).  Janci told me she’d just signed with a YA publisher. That was exciting. I asked her what her novel was about. She told me, and I immediately hated her because it sounded like such a fun idea, and I wanted to not only read it, but also write the story myself. Luckily I have a few scruples and did not pay the local Klingons to off her and drop her body in the Great Salt Lake for the brine shrimp to feast upon.

    BTW, did you know that back in the day hucksters placed this ad in Boy’s Life magazine?

    Look at that cute sea-monkey family. Look at the picture of the human family watching the sea-monkey family swim around a castle in a bowl. Click on it. See it large.

    As a young lad, I, as every good Boy Scout should, subscribed to the magazine. I saw that ad over and over.  Who wouldn’t want a sea-monkey? So I saved up my money, earned by watering plants and trees at a nursery in the hot Utah summer sun, and ordered me a family to put on my own shelf.

    The aquarium came. It was not a bowl and did not have a castle. But, hey, there were real live sea-monkey eggs right there in the packet. They weren’t just fantasy creatures! I mixed in the water and salt and dropped the eggs in. I can’t tell you how excited I was. Days later the eggs hatched. And what did I have?

    Brine shrimp.

    BRINE SHRIMP!

    I could have had my mom drive me to the lake where I could have scooped up a million of them. For free. That was, I believe, my first great disillusionment. The first great step from child to adult.

    Alas, sea-monkeys . . .

    Anyway, back to story. Janci was one of those Codex Writers who shared how she used Q&A to develop her killer story idea. She agreed to share it with you. Here’s Janci.

    ***

    The idea for CHASING THE SKIP started with a game of existential questions.  That’s like Twenty Questions, only with no question limit and much more confusing subject matter–like the Pythagorean theorem, or gas prices.  My husband and I like to play the game on long road trips, since a really good round can take two or three hours to play out. 

    On this occasion, I chose a bounty hunter.  It took Drew about five minutes to guess that one–not my finest subject ever.  But after he guessed it, we started talking.  I knew that bounty hunters still existed, but I had no idea how chasing down a fugitive could be a part of our contemporary justice system.  Just what is it that bounty hunters did, anyway?  How did it all work?

    After our road trip, that question stuck with me, so I began to do some research.  What I discovered fascinated me.  A bounty hunter could legally chase down his mark because of the bail bond process.  In order to be released from jail before a pending trial, an arrestee had to put up bail money as collateral, to ensure they returned for their trial.  Since most people can’t afford to post the full bail amount, a bondsman will post it for them, in exchange for a smaller fee.  When the arrestee skips bail, the bondsman is out the money–unless he can get bring the arrestee back.  In fact, he’ll have that person sign away their constitutional rights to privacy in addition to paying the fee.  He’s allowed to go find them if they don’t show up in court.  He can even break and enter to do so–dragging them out against their will.  But the bondsman is a busy man, so he signs those rights over to a bounty hunter, and off the bounty hunter goes, chasing down the skip.  If a person is good at it, bounty hunter can be a legitimate career.

    As I researched, I knew I had the beginnings of a story.  This had all the elements–reality with a touch of danger, crime with a touch of justice.  I wanted to make it work. 

    But I write YA novels, and no bondsman would sign on a teenager to go after his skips.  That would have all kinds of negative legal ramifications, and even if it didn’t, no reader would believe it. Enter my Creative Q&A, the question I always ask when I’m doing idea development for a novel: where can I put a teenager in this?

    Answer: she couldn’t be the bounty hunter, but she could be the bounty hunter’s daughter.

    That posed its own problems, of course.  No dad in his right mind is going to haul his daughter along on the road with him as he tracks down skips.  (Or, in question form, what would make a dad in his right mind bring his daughter into such a dangerous situation?)  I needed a crisis, so he had to bring her along, had to track down the skip, had to keep going with all of it, even when things got rough.  And if I could work in some interpersonal drama, all the better.

    And so it was that Ricki became abandoned by her mother, forced to ride along with her bounty hunter father, a man she barely knows, as he chases down a skip who is more dangerous than his usual mark.  Why would he take this particular job with Ricki along? 

    Ricki would like to know that, too.

    ***

    John Sez: ins’t that a great idea?  I hate Janci.

    While we’re hating her, did you notice that she got some random bit of zing playing 20 questions with her hubby? She followed it up by doing some research.  After doing that, she had a lot more zing. She also knew she had a general topic for a story.  She knew she had the beginnings of a story because her zing meter was going wild. 

    But she didn’t have a story yet.  She had a vocation, which is nothing more than a bit of setting.

    To have a story you need character, problem, plot, AND setting.  So she whipped out her Creative Q&A tool to help her find a character.  And the question she asked was one she’s found is very productive for her. It’s a basic question. But it’s an excellent question. And from that Q&A she started to develop the rest of the story parts.

    The take away isn’t that playing 20 questions on road trips is the key to story ideas.

    It isn’t that one question Janci asked, as fundamental and productive as it is.

    It’s that the principles we’ve been discussing in these posts work. Develop the 6 Core Parts. Think about objectives. Start anywhere. Hunt zing. Generate your own zing. Use Creative Q&A. Work on the various parts using whatever tools you have until you have developed enough that the story comes alive in your mind.

    I hope she sells a million.

    For more in this series, see How to Get and Develop Story Ideas

    Share
  • On writing lesson 5 is up

    In lesson 5, I share insights on creativity that elude many who start down the path of writing. Not knowing them can cause a lot of frustration and convince writers to quit. Don’t be frustrated. You’re going to learn:

    • What creativity really is
    • How it actually works
    • What it requires
    • And two of the main tools that will help you practice it–hunting zing and creative Q&A

    Here it is: Lesson 5: How do you get and develop ideas?

    Enjoy!

    Share
  • Indie Thoughts: What drives book sales?

    gallup-poll-how-readers-select-booksWhat are the biggest factors influencing which book a person will read next?

    Many surveys have been conducted over the years to answer just that question. I’ve pasted one on the right and summarize the results of others here. One factor sits at the top of almost all of those surveys. Did you look at those other surveys? According to these surveys, folks tend to buy books by authors they already like.

    This phenomenon is called a lot of things. One of the most common is “brand loyalty.” Some might be wondering how you define a brand and what could be branded in publishing. KKR has a great piece here that answers those questions.

    So brand loyalty. How does it develop? Well, any time you please readers, their loyalty grows and inches them toward the loyal fan end of the spectrum. Your brand may not have the power of a Dean Koontz because you don’t have near the number of loyal customers as Koontz, but you still have a brand. And people who like your stuff are going to be loyal to some degree, but not the same degree.

    I think that last point is important to remember: readers that know and like your brand won’t all have the same degree of loyalty.

    You have hard-core fans who are totally dedicated to you and make an effort to know what’s happening. You’ve pleased them so much, your brand is gold to them.

    You have others who will buy your book the minute they hear it’s out, but don’t make an active effort to keep up to date on things.

    There are others who will mark it to be read when they hear about it, but don’t make a big effort to get it unless it’s convenient.

    You have others who like your stuff but are still in that period where they like but haven’t yet committed to being a fan. That sometimes may take a few books.

    That’s how it was with me and Lee Child. I read the first and liked it. Some time later I saw another and was predisposed to like it. I read that one and liked it too. I wasn’t a Child fan yet. But then I read the third. And that’s when I became a true fan. I’m not hard-core. But I now read everything he puts out within a few months of the release.

    From what I can see, branding and brand loyalty matter no less in publishing than they do in any business where you’re relying on repeat customers.

    JD Robb Celebrity in DeathI see the effect of brand loyalty all over. It was the force behind the dramatic explosion of sales when it was revealed that Robert Galbraith, the author of The Cuckoo’s Calling, was J.K. Rowling. It was the force behind the midnight book store events when Stephanie Meyer would release a Twilight book (and the Twilight balls). And other similar events with many other authors. It’s the reason why publishers make the names of a lot of authors so prominent on the cover. Good grief, sometimes that’s all you need. Look at some of the Nora Roberts or JD Robb covers. On many of those the name, the brand, takes up 75% of the cover. You can see customer loyalty blossoming in reviews on GoodReads and Amazon and elsewhere where readers say in essence, “I loved this author and I will be looking for the next book.”

    Building a base of loyal customers is they goal in businesses that rely on repeat sales. Because not only do those folks come back for more, but the also tell other folks about the product.

    Go back an look at those surveys. What was usually the number two reason someone selected a book?

    Word of mouth.

    Word of mouth comes in many forms. Recommendations from folks you know. Recommendations from other influencers–folks like Rush Limbaugh or review sites you frequent. Recommendations from some other type of social influence mechanism like a bestseller list on Amazon.

    The key takeaway for me is that top two factors driving book sales all stem from a loyal customer base. Which means building that base should be one of my main goals as a writer.

    So how do you do that?

    The same way everyone else in a repeat customer business does it. At a general level, you:

    1. Create a product (a book in this case) that’s likely to delight a certain set of consumers (readers).
    2. Let those consumers (readers) know about it.
    3. Make it enticing for them to give it a try.
    4. Make it easy for those who liked it to know when they can get another.
    5. Get more product (another book that’s similar to the last) out the door so your repeat customers can come back for more.

    I’ll be sharing more of my ideas about aspects of those five steps in upcoming posts. And I’ll be wanting to hear what you’ve found that works. Because ultimately we’re all testing various strategies. And the more we share with each other, the more we’ll each benefit.

    While you’re waiting, you might want to look at an awesome book on customer loyalty called The Loyalty Effect by Frederick F. Reichheld.

    Share

2 Comments

  1. John, I finally was able to get registered for your site. Apparently a generic Word Press account doesn’t fit the bill.

    Anyway, I wanted to comment about the length topic. For whatever reason I find myself focusing a lot on the length of my current project. My goal was to have it clock in at about 150k, but the first draft ended up being 200k. I keep telling my wife I want to cut, cut, cut, and she just says, “Why are you so worried about it? Just write your book and let it be what it is.”

    She’s right, of course, but it’s hard not to want to give the book as much opportunity as possible to be picked up. I guess it if blows the mind the length won’t matter, but if it blows the mind and is the the “ideal” length, it just feels like it will have a better chance.

    Regardless, it has been very useful to give myself a goal of cutting 10% out of each scene. I’ve found that the writing has become more tight. Until I really started looking for ways to cut 10% out, I had no idea how much stuff was in there that didn’t have to be.

    I’m half tempted to give myself a goal of “cut 10% of the scenes.” I can’t help but think the book would be tighter and better for it.

  2. Cutting can be helpful. One interesting thing I’ve found with my writing is that revising usually makes the story longer. SODG, for instance, sold to Tor at about 147,000 words. After revisions it’s now around 175,000. All my stories seem to only get longer. 🙂

    But it all depends on the story you’re writing and what it needs. If it’s an epic fantasy, I wouldn’t worry about it. There are plenty of exceptions to the 100k rule. Patrick Rothfuss, Brandon Sanderson, Ken Scholes, me…

    If it’s in another genre, you might want to rethink. Maybe there IS a way to split it. But maybe not. I wish you a lot of success!

Comments are closed.